tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post8668727797253140825..comments2024-03-26T12:05:58.591-04:00Comments on Freemasons For Dummies: The French, the Francmaçons and ParisFredChristopher Hodapphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04201859873755654395noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-21790357962901829702007-11-26T20:04:00.000-05:002007-11-26T20:04:00.000-05:00Perhaps this is merely symbolic, but I prefer the ...Perhaps this is merely symbolic, but I prefer the lodgeroom to essentially remain a place to confer degrees and conduct our business. I'd prefer that these other conversations be relegated to the dinner table during a festive board or social area outside the lodgeroom. <BR/><BR/>I'm not opposed to Masonic education being conducted in the lodgeroom while lodge is open as long as it doesn't digress into political or religious discussion which is a definite threat to harmony. There are a multitude of topics that are suitable for the lodgeroom- historical aspects of the fraterity, customs, aspects of the ritual, etc. Anything that has the potential to disrupt the harmony of the lodge should be off-limits to the lodgeroom.Jim Dillmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06361288577984845965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-21863005161477823002007-11-26T19:33:00.000-05:002007-11-26T19:33:00.000-05:00Br:. Dillman,Once you have eliminated political, s...Br:. Dillman,<BR/>Once you have eliminated political, social and religious discussions from the lodge room, what would you have us discuss?<BR/>Tony MeltonTonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17788048321514242563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-56479853233976223502007-11-26T17:51:00.000-05:002007-11-26T17:51:00.000-05:00I'm opposed to bringing political, social and reli...I'm opposed to bringing political, social and religious discussions into the lodgeroom. The lodgeroom is a place where harmony and decorum should always prevail. There is no greater threat to harmony than these types of discussions. <BR/><BR/>One of the goals of Freemasonry is to teach a man to subdue his passions and I suppose that in a perfect world, we could discuss politics in the lodgeroom without threatening the harmony of the lodge. It's a great theory that almost certainly would fail in practice.Jim Dillmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06361288577984845965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-85630250377139768662007-11-26T07:15:00.000-05:002007-11-26T07:15:00.000-05:00In regards to the GOdF and these political discuss...In regards to the GOdF and these political discussions. I am all for these discussions.<BR/><BR/>If masons are to be the leaders of society, when these men get together in a lodge, why not discuss politics and social issues, so these leaders can go out and implement them?<BR/><BR/>Young men joining Lodges say they want to join the organisation that geo washington and franklin belonged to. Those men discussed politics and religion within the Lodge room. We are not offering the same masonry of our forefathers and should tell young aspirants so.<BR/><BR/>The GOdF has remained somewhat true to that form and spirit of masonry. The one that founded America.<BR/>IMHOTubal Cainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00704479584240584425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-43191973314458760562007-11-25T01:01:00.000-05:002007-11-25T01:01:00.000-05:00that would make me righten gardeBrandtthat would make me right<BR/><BR/>en garde<BR/><BR/>BrandtJohn Galthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17673745675058971875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-80616583504894212982007-11-24T17:49:00.000-05:002007-11-24T17:49:00.000-05:00No, no.You'd put somebody's eye out.No, no.<BR/><BR/>You'd put somebody's eye out.Christopher Hodapphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04201859873755654395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-71705540580023183092007-11-24T15:29:00.000-05:002007-11-24T15:29:00.000-05:00Brother Chris, It seems that the more we talk the ...Brother Chris,<BR/> It seems that the more we talk the more we have in common. <BR/><BR/> At least a tyranny like Hitler is honest, he just does it. This tyranny for my own good upsets me to a great degree. I smoke. I can still box for ten rounds and run rings around most 18 year olds. I like fried food and pizza. I also spend more to eat well at home than I do going out and eating that garbage.<BR/><BR/> I don't need a government to look out for my own good. I need a government to provide a police to protect citizens from criminals, to provide a military to protect the body politic from foreign aggression, and to provide a justice system in which parties in dispute can have their differences settled. I don't need anything else other than some roads. <BR/> What I don't need is a government to protect me from being offended. Just don't make the mistake of offending me in my home.<BR/> Maybe if we reinstated the Codex Duellist we could solve many issues quickly.<BR/><BR/>BrandtJohn Galthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17673745675058971875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-5842498955775255002007-11-24T10:19:00.000-05:002007-11-24T10:19:00.000-05:00We've gotten down to the madness of major metropol...We've gotten down to the madness of major metropolitan city councils passing laws about what kind of oil our french fries can be cooked in, and what kind of radio talk show host should be on the air. Kids are expelled from school over violating strict "no contact rules" by hugging a friend goodbye for vacations. The Federal Trade Commission actually considered forcing bucket manufacturers to put holes in buckets because ONE TODDLER fell headfirst into a plastic bucket full of water and drowned.<BR/><BR/>And do NOT get me started on anti-smoking laws that tell apartment dwellers they can't smoke in their homes, drivers that they can't smoke in their own cars and business owners that they can't smoke in their own businesses — while government is more addicted to tobacco tax money than smokers are to their butts. If smokers are being used to balance state and local budgets, shouldn't they have MORE rights? If anti-smoking laws were really about health than about not just having stinky clothes after a night of bar hopping, then have the fortitude to ban cigarette sales in your state. Yet, amazingly, the vaunted "tobacco settlement" several years ago forced tobacco companies to agree not to stop selling their products in signatory states!<BR/><BR/>So how do you ring a bell, wipe it all clean and start from scratch?<BR/><BR/>Am I off topic yet?Christopher Hodapphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04201859873755654395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-73542059574480832452007-11-24T09:39:00.000-05:002007-11-24T09:39:00.000-05:00Brother Chris, Allow me to prod you a little more....Brother Chris,<BR/> Allow me to prod you a little more. I check to make sure that my wallet is still in my pocket when I hear people tell me what is my "own good."<BR/><BR/> My liberty ends when it interferes with the liberty of others. On this, I think that we can all agree. Now, we have a society that feels that they can pass a law based upon feelings. Nobody has a right to not be offended. Reason has very little place in our society.<BR/><BR/> Before my fiancé reads this over my shoulder I will have to say that feelings do matter. My feelings matter to me. They should not be used as club to control you. If all met on the level and worked according to our own needs to achieve what we needed/wanted without theft or restricting other citizens (reason is required for this) then we would have far fewer laws.<BR/> (Vote Libertarian)<BR/><BR/> We are here in a world that believes and feels that they must control me, you and everyone else to make sure that you don't have a thought that may make someone feel bad for being a parasite.<BR/><BR/>BrandtJohn Galthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17673745675058971875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-23479310100814546422007-11-24T03:08:00.000-05:002007-11-24T03:08:00.000-05:00An old Jesuit friend once described himself as so ...An old Jesuit friend once described himself as so liberal that he wouldn't even take his own side in an argument. I am reminded of this when I read about laws and commissions assembled to "enforce" or "determine" the direction culture will take. Culture, like language, should be a constantly evolving force, left to seek its own level. I can't help but believe that gets subverted when we set ourselves up as autocratic lifeguards.<BR/><BR/>I guess it's my inner recoil at what has happened in US society since the 1960's. The Baby Boomers rebelled against all that their parents believed in. Everything that smelled like The Establishment became a target for derision, scorn and destruction. Consequently, all of those things people always seemed to instinctively know not to do (because the neighbors would talk, the minister would find out, or "nice people" just didn't do it) fell by the wayside. Now, we have no manners that are not enforced by law. We have warning signs instead of common sense. And instead of the next door neighbor smacking you in the head for breaking his window, he just sues your parents. We now make all of our most important cultural decisions in a courtroom. A kid can't have aspirin in his locker without risking jail for violating drug laws. Boys can't carry pocket knives because they are undoubtedly terrorists. And the "Land of the Free" has a greater percentage of its population in jail than any other nation on Earth. On and on it goes. What I can't figure out is how the Woodstock, "anything goes," "turn on, tune in, drop out," free love generation turn into the most litigious, nosey, judgmental society on earth, who believes passing more laws and jailing more citizens is the way to create Paradise. How did all the hippies turn into nannies?<BR/><BR/>So yes, I tense up when some commission assembles to start making pronouncements about what should and should not be an official part of the public culture. It reminds me of the line from (of all things) the movie <I>Demolition Man</I>: "Not good for you, therefore bad for you, therefore illegal."<BR/><BR/>And it seems to me to have an air of smug superiority to it: <I>We will decide what is the proper amount of religious or ethnic or other cultural influence around here, and we'll let you know. </I>It's a kind of arrogance that only a bureaucrat can grant himself. <BR/><BR/>Maybe that's just me.<BR/><BR/>See, you guys have me on a roll, now.Christopher Hodapphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04201859873755654395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-11767890183592603992007-11-24T01:32:00.000-05:002007-11-24T01:32:00.000-05:00Bro Chris, this is exactly what is happening in Qu...Bro Chris, this is exactly what is happening in Quebec.<BR/><BR/>Below is a link to our government's response which I think works pretty well:<BR/><BR/>http://www.accommodements.qc.ca/index-en.html<BR/><BR/>ElimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-52074559791673758842007-11-23T23:38:00.000-05:002007-11-23T23:38:00.000-05:00Brother Chris, I am encouraged by the fact that yo...Brother Chris,<BR/> I am encouraged by the fact that you and Brother Fred can discuss these issues with such openness.<BR/><BR/> You may have surmised that I think highly of the Grand Orient of France. I do. <BR/><BR/> Regardless, laïc philosophy does not spell an end to a nation's identity. A nation has no identity. People do. If new ideas and influences destroy that person's identity then so be it, it will not destroy the person. We do need to grow.<BR/> I am not saying that culture is not important. We need to appreciate that without turning it into a golden calf.<BR/><BR/>Fraternally,<BR/>BrandtJohn Galthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17673745675058971875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-31668327013219463702007-11-23T19:51:00.000-05:002007-11-23T19:51:00.000-05:00BTW, Olivier, you said: Whatever the case may be, ...BTW, Olivier, you said: <I>Whatever the case may be, it's always sad to have two brothers vehemently arguing about this type of issue. </I><BR/><BR/>Fred and I aren't arguing, my brother. We're all here to learn from each other, and I'm still learning.Christopher Hodapphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04201859873755654395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-2807190022704788202007-11-23T19:49:00.000-05:002007-11-23T19:49:00.000-05:00Elim, you bring up a point that I'm sure has been ...Elim, you bring up a point that I'm sure has been yakked to death, in Paris and Quebec. Namely, if Laicité is the only way to be truly multi-cultural, at what point does a nation give up its collective identity and traditions for the goal of achieving "multi-culturalism?" <BR/><BR/>Should it? If so, why does France continue to police its language with official statements against Franglais? And isn't France continually bedeviled by what it regards as too much commercial influence from America, too many African and Muslim immigrants, and too many cute Polish girls taking all of the good waitress jobs?<BR/><BR/>Or maybe this is a discussion for a different setting.<BR/><BR/>Jim, as to the Grand Orient of France not being Masons, I see it as a case of them having the Masonry they required. It suits what is obviously the vast majority of Masons in France — the other dozen or so Grand Lodges there don't come close to the GOdF's size, even when you add the rest of them together. And honestly, they see it as a better way than ours. They are so confident that the GOdF really couldn't care less what the rest of the Masonic world thinks of their innovations. They take what they see as the moral high-road: 'go ahead and call us clandestine all you like, but you can sit in our lodge any time you want.' So do they understand the notion of universal brotherhood better than we do? <BR/><BR/>Maybe so. I'm still working on that one.Christopher Hodapphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04201859873755654395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-84443423504463027912007-11-23T11:35:00.000-05:002007-11-23T11:35:00.000-05:00Regarding atheism and Freemasonry, where you stand...Regarding atheism and Freemasonry, where you stand is where you sit. I believe that Anderson's Constitutions is the very foundation of Freemasonry, at least all regular Freemasonry. You'll never convince a member of the GOdF of that as it would be a tacit admission that what they practice is not Freemasonry. <BR/><BR/>I'll be the first to admit that there have been numerous innovations in regular Freemasonry and that we typically don't do a very good job of adhering to the Ancient Charges. The GOdF openly and admittedly defies the Ancient Charges. Regular Freemasonry hasn't abandoned the principles laid down in the Ancient Charges, they've just deviated from the practice of them. To me, the difference is crystal clear.Jim Dillmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06361288577984845965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-65827488146898230382007-11-22T22:54:00.000-05:002007-11-22T22:54:00.000-05:00It's the same here in Quebec. Laicité is a very bi...It's the same here in Quebec. Laicité is a very big topic and is the only way of being truly multicultural. Of course, the antis accuse us of destroying all morals. Funny how they can't seem to separate religion from anti-masonry...<BR/><BR/>ElimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-39480219597315973112007-11-22T08:50:00.000-05:002007-11-22T08:50:00.000-05:00This is a great dialog. Very well thought out by b...This is a great dialog. Very well thought out by both Fred and Chris (both whom I admire greatly). <BR/><BR/>Bravo for you guys talking it out using kindness and tact.<BR/><BR/>Not everyone will agree with each other all the time. We all have our own feelings about the regular/irregular, Atheist/believer issues (among a ton of other differences) but the bottom line is we all want the best for the craft in our own ways.<BR/><BR/>It's important to keep an open mind when hearing the other parties point of view because you might be learning something new.<BR/><BR/>S&F<BR/><BR/>Cory SiglerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-36825833713537200602007-11-22T03:26:00.000-05:002007-11-22T03:26:00.000-05:00Bro:. Chris,First of all, I am really, sincerely, ...Bro:. Chris,<BR/><BR/>First of all, I am really, sincerely, touched that you took time to reply to my comment. <BR/><BR/>As I said I am not a member of the GOdF, all I wrote is, of course, just my personal opinion but I like masonic history and the GOdF played an important part in it.<BR/>And it is often misunterpreted by anglo american masons. <BR/><BR/>Several point in your reply are not exact, not on philosophical point of view, who am I to judge... but on the fact and the reality of the masonic history.<BR/><BR/>I will try to show it in a more precise reply.<BR/><BR/>many thanks,<BR/>Fraternally,<BR/>FredAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25683662.post-6021311653188130622007-11-22T03:12:00.000-05:002007-11-22T03:12:00.000-05:00Hi there, I'm in a strange situation here - I'm F...Hi there, <BR/><BR/>I'm in a strange situation here - I'm French but I belong to a UGLE lodge (I don't reside in France). I don't really know what GOdF is really all about, to be frank - the Masonry I know and belong to is, once again, UGLE. <BR/>The question of Laicite has always been a bone of contention among the French, I guess - but I don't think it's based on atheism. True, the original 1905 law was the product of anti-catholic politicians influenced by Comte's positivism and extreme rationalism...but Laicite is primarily, in 2007, a way of acknowledging all religious beliefs by substracting them from the public sphere. I know that's a pretty big fish to swallow, but that really is the rationale behind it. Of course that's a very complex issue and I can't pretend I can summarise it in a few lines. <BR/>In terms of atheism, FM is indeed based on what I'd call a Biblical mythos - Solomon's temple - so being an atheist, although it doesn't mean that one doesn't believe in "anything" is a slight problem if you want to join, for sure. Also, being an atheist necessarily means that you only believe in a rational view of the world, which is fine, but I fail to see how FM is going to affect you in any way if it's the case. Whatever the case may be, it's always sad to have two brothers vehemently arguing about this type of issue. Surely Masonic principles are the same everywhere - give or take a few differences, I guess.<BR/>Just a few thoughts, <BR/><BR/>Olivier<BR/>King Edward Lodge EC 3004<BR/>South AfricaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com